How do you know if a Grey horse will dapple out or go fully white? Is there any sure way to test it?

I've got a beautifully coloured boy who is rising 4 but I can't work out what colour he actually is. I'll try and post a picture when I get to my laptop tonight so you can see him. He's got almost a roan coat as its got flecks of brown in it, plus his sister is strawberry roan. So will he stay the colour he is now, or change? Place your bets now!

There has been some research that says that the speed of greying to white is dependant or perhaps related is a better word, to whether the horse is heterozygous or homozygous for the grey gene. So a horse that is dappled is more likely to be heterozygous grey. Seems perfectly resonable (though I have probably desperately over simplified it!!)

Will look forward to the photo of your boy - do you know his breeding and the colours of his sire and dam?

Yes, he's pure thoroughbred - which may help with the colours as I believe only solid colours are allowed in the stud book. He is by Victory Note out of Little Emily.

Mum was grey, dad was a "b h" which I assume is Bay, but it could be brown. Hang on I've found a photo of dad. Nothing coming up on mum.

http://www.le-cheval-bleu.com/victorynote-vainqueurs0203.htm

Benny is a little Fugly at the moment as his muscle tone is all upside-down but I think he'll make a lovely horse eventually.

Oh, just found a picture of his sister. She was lovely but too young for me.

http://www.b2yor.co.uk/07_publish_pics/LadyCobra_070919_ktna1.jpg

Sister is lovely and very grey! I'm guessing your guy is going grey too then, but of course he must be heterozygous as dad is obviously not grey. Without seeing the photos of your guy I would say he's going grey but probably won't go "white" that quickly. Will look forward to seeing him

Em,

You saw Inca when she first arrived didnt you? Look at the pic of me on her now.. Her head is lighter but the rest of her has got darker.. Her Dad was white and her Mum was bay i think but i am sure she will go grey. She was bay when she was born, so her passport says. Grey horses are never born grey. always chestnut, bay or black when they are born and go lighter.

X X

I thought they all ended up white eventually ?? - just some go lighter quicker than others.

my favourite topic!!!!! ..........once a very painful one ! .......over which i was distinctly bullied ! ......but it s no longer an issue .....as i will do my best to prove the GREY BASHERS WRONG!
as it s been explain to me "GREY" isn t a colur but something that happens to colour ,that s why i assume the fade to grey process can be so dramatic ,( i may need to be corrected at any point as this is only how i ve come to understand it ? )
but the "GREY" gene can only be passed on directly i.e one or both parents must carry the grey gene ( although in some coat patterns this may not be obvious ie spotteds , mistaken "roans"etc)but it was pointed out to me a sure tell tail sign of greying can often be seen in the appearence of white hairs around the eyes & muzzle .
if the foal does not inherit the GREY of one /both parents it cannot pass grey on to any of its own prodergy ( ie GREY cannot skip a genneration )
eg. the chances of a GREY mare having a GREY foal is 50/50 ,but each pregancy is a totaly seperate toss of the coin eg just because the mares 1st foal is Grey does it mean her next will be solid .......... brood mares both GREY may have 6 pregancys each 1 may have ALL GREYS ......while the other NONE atall .........or anything in between just the same as the chances of our pregnancies producing BOYS or GIRLS????! .My colt Billy is "grey" and if you look at the slide show you ll see his spots fading away , he was made a bit of an outcast due to his GREY status as Spotted breeders seem very reluctant to accept GREYS existance i only laugh through my tears of frustration as seeing as GREY is a totally natural occurance which is present in EVERY BREED WORLDWIDE ,ARAB ,TB ,WELSH etc etc etc!
i find it a very though attitude to stomach! ...more a stick your head in the sand approach when it would be far more helpful to breeders to just acept greys and detail them as such in the stud book so GREYS could be tracked ( as eacH must have a direct link to a DECLARED GREY parent ) this would allow people who want to avoid GREY in thier breeding to do so effectively without excluding quality animals who are GREY from the gene pool .
the GREY PHOBIA within spotted breeding just causes a rediculas situation with breeders afraid of declaring "GREY" so instead many are loosely /wrongly put across as fewspots(NB this comment is not made to cause offense but this does happen ) thankfully i understand there will soon be a DNA test for the GREY gene and perhps this could be done routinely as registation ?.
so sorry Emma to have got on my soap box durring YOUR thread but its a topic very colse to my heart that i feel very passionate about . Grey in my eyes is just a very "magical"transformaton that happends throughout ALL breeds ,ALL levels of quality ......frona little wesh mountain pony > the very top Race horse it has no detramental effect on the horses /ponies quality or performance ,and is recognised & accepted by COLOURED HORES / PONY SOCIETIES BSPA & CHAPS ( even at the fully white stage as HISTORICAL GREYS) . being made to feel an outcast "DIRTY" has just made me feel extra determined to help Billy ( for his & Bamba s sakes)fulfill his true potentaland i ll never hide his GREY status i ll shout it from the bloody roof tops !!!!!!!!! & people can make thier own minds up?

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life without horses & chocolate just wouldn t be worth living!
sarah x

Right, so if I understand this right then Grey is a 'fading' gene that sits ontop of the base colour (I'm guessing that would normally be black?).

So, genetically, where does a Roan stand? And how would I be able to tell if he is pure 'grey' or a roan - I'm suspicious due to his sister being registered as roan and the brown in his coat. And do roans fade?

I'm begining to think you need a degree in equine genetics to understand this colour malarky!!

I M purely a lay Person but my understanding is that ROANS heads remain solid in colour and any head markings remain true ie star ,blaze etc
where as in GREYS the head usually the first place that shows signs of greying .(I THINK? ) . I COULD BE COMPELETLY OFF THE MARK THOUGH , SOMEONE CLEVERER THAN ME WILL PUT YOU STRAIGHT IN MUCH DETAIL I M SURE !!!!
from the photo i d say his sister is GREY not ROAN when i was a teenager (many years ago!!!! ) i had a pure bred Arab that greyed in exactly the same way almost strawberry roan (rose grey ) at 16 years he was white VERY VERY HANDSOME though!

_________________
life without horses & chocolate just wouldn t be worth living!
sarah x

I know nothing about the genetics of roaning but yes grey is something that happens to a colour - any colour, whether it's palomino bay, black, coloured, spotted etc!

And all greys I beleive eventually go white - the speed of which that happens could be linked to homozygosity as Laura says...

I love the really dark dappled grey like Inca is now - so eye catching. Our TB broodmare is a very light dapple grey now, you can hardly see her dapples but I have pics of her as dark as Kate's Inca so she's a good example of the colour fading!

Sarah I think anyone would be hard pushed to agree that your boy is absolutely stunning - grey gene or not!

Ok, so from what you guys say about genetics I'm thinking he's a grey and will go lighter. I also found this on Wikipaedia:

The roan gene arguably does not appear in Arabians and Thoroughbreds; though horses in these breeds have been registered as "roan." It is thought that irregularly colored individuals in those breeds may actually carry the rabicano gene or the sabino gene complex rather than the "true" roan gene. In other cases, a young horse that was slow to turn gray was occasionally mistaken for a roan at the time of registration and the papers never corrected.

Which is interesting if true.

Sarah James, in that photo she looks pure grey but when I saw her in the flesh she was very pinky. Almost a pink champagne colour, she'd have made a super show mare

Sarah James - a yes the great grey debate in spotties - always interesting whenever someone posts on a forum that they are going to cross their grey pony onto an appaloosa stallion to sit back and see how long it takes the thread to start questioning peoples sexuality or parentage!!!! Something several breeders are passionate about!

I agree with you in your summing up of what grey does - apart from one point - a mare will throw grey onto 50% of her progeny if she is heterozygous - and 100% if she is homozygous.

Your boy is wonderful - I'd have him on this yard in a minute - but equally we have grey sports horses and that is what I concider him to be.

I totally respect any breeder of spotties right to refuse to take a grey mare but ultimately I don't care if people want to breed to greys either - as long as they are honest. To me the problem is people trying to mislead others. ie selling a few spot that is also grey without saying it is grey.

We may well cover outside grey mares (polo ponies) with our boy, but we choose not to cover our own grey mare with him.

Sarah - thanks you ve always been kind to me throughout my whole "GREY" Rrollersoaster ride!!!!! & i ll alwaysappreciate that!
Laura - i couldn t agree more ,we too want Billy to be primarly considered a sports horse and as such he has held his own at county level ( and poor thing he falls between 2 stools as spotties don t like he s grey & SHB(GB) JUDGES can t get they re heads round his spots & pink mottled skin!!!! but despite this both side still like HIM Which is how we should judge horses judging beyond colour you hear spotted & coloured showing people say that all the time but in reality we can be the most PREDUDICE of all diappointed when our planned coloured foal comes out chestnut or our spotty foal turns out bay or GREY! where as if we stood back and thought if this stallion /mare doesn t through colour do i like him/her enough without his /her coat pattern if the answers no don t breed from him or her ?) i may not always express myself properly but the bottom line is just for every one to be open & honest theres no shame or desease .bare with me my analogies can be a bit weird!
but GREY is a bit like Marmite !!!!!!!!(stay with me! ) some people love it ..........some wouldn t touch it with a barge pole!
but all the super markets put it out on the shelf for thier customers to decide for themselves
what would be wrong is if the super markets to think .....this bloody Marmite isn t shifting .....i know we ll stick a NUTELLA label on it and see if more customers want it then! ok not the best analogy !
but breeders have the intelligence to make INFORMED choices ....is the DNA test available yet? to tell heters from homos? wouldn t both parents have to be GREY to produce a Homo?
but as long as it is openly aknowleged ( as Laura said ) that the use of a Grey sire or dam could /or will ? (heter /homo) result in a GREY offspring then there should be no restictions other than usual considerations ie conformaton,height , type performance etc
if you were offered a VILE SNOT GREEN ( better analogy than WHITE! ) 2008 Merc or a drop dead georgous metalic blue colour1970 FORD CORTINA would colour be the deciding factor?????
Emma i m sure your Boy if he s roan ?/grey?/ lime green with purple strips? is fab can t wait to see some pics of him

_________________
life without horses & chocolate just wouldn t be worth living!
sarah x